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  1. #1
    Non-member danielmk323's Avatar
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    what inlet manifold design to use for efi

    Hi guys i m looking in efi my c1j but had fond noting on what is the best way to make the inlet manifold and what more it needs like sensors vacuum in the inlet any help please

  2. #2
    Committee, South East Regional Rep James5's Avatar
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    Re: what inlet manifold design to use for efi

    Quote Originally Posted by danielmk323 View Post
    Hi guys i m looking in efi my c1j but had fond noting on what is the best way to make the inlet manifold and what more it needs like sensors vacuum in the inlet any help please

    Micheal Tierney makes modified OE inlet's for injection, wether there any good I have no idea as not many peeps comment or even mention.

  3. #3
    Non-member danielmk323's Avatar
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    Re: what inlet manifold design to use for efi

    Quote Originally Posted by James5 View Post
    Micheal Tierney makes modified OE inlet's for injection, wether there any good I have no idea as not many peeps comment or even mention.
    is there any link for it ? i dont now who is he

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    Committee, South East Regional Rep James5's Avatar
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    Re: what inlet manifold design to use for efi

    Quote Originally Posted by danielmk323 View Post
    is there any link for it ? i dont now who is he

    Here you go

    https://www.rtoc.org/boards/member.php?u=349

  5. #5
    Non-member danielmk323's Avatar
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    Re: what inlet manifold design to use for efi

    Quote Originally Posted by James5 View Post
    tank you man

  6. #6
    East Midlands Regional Rep Os8472's Avatar
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    Re: what inlet manifold design to use for efi

    Quote Originally Posted by James5 View Post
    I'm using his efi inlet right now, its spot on

  7. #7
    Non-member markey b's Avatar
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    Re: what inlet manifold design to use for efi

    Quote Originally Posted by Os8472 View Post
    I'm using his efi inlet right now, its spot on
    spot on at 120bhp u mean

  8. #8
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    Re: what inlet manifold design to use for efi

    Quote Originally Posted by markey b View Post
    spot on at 120bhp u mean


    from what ive seen of it ,its not a bad bit of kit, it seems to go well even at 7 psi,and returns good mpg ,which is a really BIG plus

    depends what the costs are /compared to building your own

  9. #9
    Non-member danielmk323's Avatar
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    Re: what inlet manifold design to use for efi

    i have gavet it a look it looks a good kit i have pm him for price and what consist of so now what sensors do i need for the ecu water ect

  10. #10
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    Re: what inlet manifold design to use for efi

    Quote Originally Posted by danielmk323 View Post
    i have gavet it a look it looks a good kit i have pm him for price and what consist of so now what sensors do i need for the ecu water ect
    that will all depend what stand alone ecu you use, adaptronic, emerald.omex ... etc ..etc theres loads out there, most ecu's will have there own sensors , to run the stand alone software but you will still use your renault clocks / gauges ,for fuel level,water temp,oil pressure,speedo /tacho

  11. #11
    Non-member danielmk323's Avatar
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    Re: what inlet manifold design to use for efi

    Quote Originally Posted by HAndy View Post
    that will all depend what stand alone ecu you use, adaptronic, emerald.omex ... etc ..etc theres loads out there, most ecu's will have there own sensors , to run the stand alone software but you will still use your renault clocks / gauges ,for fuel level,water temp,oil pressure,speedo /tacho
    tank you for the help a+

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    Re: what inlet manifold design to use for efi

    Quote Originally Posted by danielmk323 View Post
    tank you for the help a+


    i fitted the air temp sensor before the throttle body and water temp sensor would be tapped into the cylinder head plate (gearbox side) on the c1j engine

  13. #13
    Non-member TNT ANDY's Avatar
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    Re: what inlet manifold design to use for efi

    Quote Originally Posted by danielmk323 View Post
    i have gavet it a look it looks a good kit i have pm him for price and what consist of so now what sensors do i need for the ecu water ect
    Basic kit would be ; -

    1. ECU
    2. Water Temp sensor.
    3. Lambda sensor.
    4. Map Sensor.
    5.throttle position sensor.

    And I think that should have you up and running. Other sensors are optional for additional bennifits / confusion.

  14. #14
    East Midlands Regional Rep Os8472's Avatar
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    Re: what inlet manifold design to use for efi

    Quote Originally Posted by markey b View Post
    spot on at 120bhp u mean
    130 actually, haven't turned the boost up yet with this setup, previous setup made 211 with a major missfire, this should put out 230ish

  15. #15
    Non-member danielmk323's Avatar
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    Re: what inlet manifold design to use for efi

    Quote Originally Posted by Os8472 View Post
    130 actually, haven't turned the boost up yet with this setup, previous setup made 211 with a major missfire, this should put out 230ish
    nice tank you for the help guys i was looking at the adaptronic ecu any advice on it

  16. #16
    East Midlands Regional Rep Os8472's Avatar
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    Re: what inlet manifold design to use for efi

    Quote Originally Posted by danielmk323 View Post
    nice tank you for the help guys i was looking at the adaptronic ecu any advice on it
    Can't really help with that as I have the Emerald but I've had a play about with the adaptronic software and the setup looks good

  17. #17
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    Re: what inlet manifold design to use for efi

    Here is mine:


    R21t throttle body and elbow.

  18. #18
    Committee, South East Regional Rep James5's Avatar
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    Re: what inlet manifold design to use for efi

    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy_GTT View Post
    Here is mine:


    R21t throttle body and elbow.

    I am liking that, who made that any more pics of your setup

  19. #19
    Member Woznaldo's Avatar
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    Re: what inlet manifold design to use for efi

    Quote Originally Posted by TNT ANDY View Post
    Basic kit would be ; -

    1. ECU
    2. Water Temp sensor.
    3. Lambda sensor.
    4. Map Sensor.
    5.throttle position sensor.

    And I think that should have you up and running. Other sensors are optional for additional bennifits / confusion.
    I would add IAT (Inlet Air Temp) to that list too.

  20. #20
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    Re: what inlet manifold design to use for efi

    top job that, james

  21. #21
    Non-member danielmk323's Avatar
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    Re: what inlet manifold design to use for efi

    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy_GTT View Post
    Here is mine:


    R21t throttle body and elbow.
    nice set-up you have ther what is the fuel rail off or is custom

  22. #22
    Non-member Hi 5's Avatar
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    Re: what inlet manifold design to use for efi

    mine will be for sale but it will be about 6 months look at profile and mine will take 35 psi of boost

  23. #23
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    Re: what inlet manifold design to use for efi

    Quote Originally Posted by danielmk323 View Post
    nice set-up you have ther what is the fuel rail off or is custom
    It is custom.

  24. #24
    Non-member danielmk323's Avatar
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    Re: what inlet manifold design to use for efi

    Quote Originally Posted by Hi 5 View Post
    mine will be for sale but it will be about 6 months look at profile and mine will take 35 psi of boost
    no fair you are doing a better one for your self

  25. #25
    Non-member Hi 5's Avatar
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    Re: what inlet manifold design to use for efi

    Quote Originally Posted by danielmk323 View Post
    no fair you are doing a better one for your self
    i carnt make a better one son changing car after beating janni santi on with new project.

  26. #26
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    Re: what inlet manifold design to use for efi

    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy_GTT View Post
    Here is mine:


    R21t throttle body and elbow.
    That is looking sweet Jimmy! I love the 'keeping it Renault' theme!

    Here's my Alliance Manifold:



    The 4 bolt throttle body attachment is the same spacing as a CS172 which is what I'll probably upgrade to if I ever get the damn thing running!

  27. #27
    Non-member Rob@Backyardracing's Avatar
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    Re: what inlet manifold design to use for efi

    no dis-respect, but all these designs utilise too much of the standard manifold, you need to bin it, you need more volume to make more power, (andy cookes was a great example from back in the day). i would just use the flange of the stanard mani, then sheet metal fabrictate the rest, decide on your hp goals, then calculate optimum plenum volume and runner length (lots of data online), and knock one up.

    as markey correctly states, the standard jobby is great at 120hp, and will make more of course, but once your getting upwards of double standard output, its wayyy off its design objectives, and far from efficent.

  28. #28
    Member Woznaldo's Avatar
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    Re: what inlet manifold design to use for efi

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob@Backyardracing View Post
    no dis-respect, but all these designs utilise too much of the standard manifold, you need to bin it, you need more volume to make more power, (andy cookes was a great example from back in the day). i would just use the flange of the stanard mani, then sheet metal fabrictate the rest, decide on your hp goals, then calculate optimum plenum volume and runner length (lots of data online), and knock one up.

    as markey correctly states, the standard jobby is great at 120hp, and will make more of course, but once your getting upwards of double standard output, its wayyy off its design objectives, and far from efficent.
    Sorry, what part of an Alliance manifold is std GTT?

    I would never assume that it is the perfect design but, it's power producing properties are far from proven. I would guess that the plenum is about a litre in volume, maybe 1.5 which is not far off the supposed 1-1.4:1 ratio guide of plenum to engine size guide.

    All you need to do now is wait for the next 10 years for me to finish it!

  29. #29
    Non-member Rob@Backyardracing's Avatar
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    Re: what inlet manifold design to use for efi

    but the engines effective size is muliplied by boost....


    on the hondas which are 1800cc, there run upto 6l volume, you do the math

  30. #30
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    Re: what inlet manifold design to use for efi

    Fair point Rob.

    Space would be an issue for 4-5 litres of plenum in a GTT? I think you could probably squeeze in a good 3 litres worth?

    I guess your point is that none of these manifolds (Alliance aside) have a plenum of any kind in the true sense.

  31. #31
    Member Woznaldo's Avatar
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    Re: what inlet manifold design to use for efi

    Here's a good article for the yank publication 'Modified Magazine' that I subscribe to:

    http://www.amsperformance.com/pdfs/intakemani.pdf

  32. #32
    East Midlands Regional Rep Os8472's Avatar
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    Re: what inlet manifold design to use for efi

    What we need is someone with an allience manifold to get it copied, there must be smoe way of doing it

  33. #33
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    Re: what inlet manifold design to use for efi

    Quote Originally Posted by Os8472 View Post
    What we need is someone with an allience manifold to get it copied, there must be smoe way of doing it
    I did look into it a while ago and yes it can be done but the minimum numbers required at the time just didn't make it cost effective (500 min). Some company in Turkey that does sand cast replicas.

  34. #34
    East Midlands Regional Rep Os8472's Avatar
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    Re: what inlet manifold design to use for efi

    Quote Originally Posted by Woznaldo View Post
    I did look into it a while ago and yes it can be done but the minimum numbers required at the time just didn't make it cost effective (500 min). Some company in Turkey that does sand cast replicas.
    500 holy ****, there's gotta be someone else that'd do a smaller batch

  35. #35
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    Re: what inlet manifold design to use for efi

    I reckon there probably is someone somewhere that will do smaller numbers. I seem to remember a company at Autosport that could do a smaller batch but, I have no idea what their company name was?

    It must have been in 2006 (last time I went!).

  36. #36
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    Re: what inlet manifold design to use for efi

    Quote Originally Posted by Os8472 View Post
    What we need is someone with an allience manifold to get it copied, there must be smoe way of doing it
    But like Rob just said, its not a manifold you want to copy. You could improve on that design a lot.

  37. #37
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    Re: what inlet manifold design to use for efi

    Too true Scoff. In the article that I posted above it suggested that the plenum should be 1.5-2.0 times the engine capacity and maybe more on a turbocharged engine. The Alliance was a normally aspirated car and the only reason the Californian model has multi-point injection was to meet the emissions requirement for that state.

    I will say that if you were going to design a manifold for semi-mass production, you'd probably want it to be cast aluminium alloy as it's cheaper. That's not to say a low production hand made manifold cant be done. A few jigs etc could see something very worthwhile come together for reasonable cash but, it would need to be developed and be a proven performer before hand.

  38. #38
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    Re: what inlet manifold design to use for efi

    I've think it would be a miricle if you could get even 10 serious customers, even if the cost was sub £500. Reality is that it will cost more than that if quantities are that small. Maybe if the other hardware and tuning costs were lower there might be more interested people.

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    Re: what inlet manifold design to use for efi

    Re plenum volume, I'd go for 1.5x engine capacity x boost (bar, absolute), if you have the room

  40. #40
    Regional Rep Chris Hebden's Avatar
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    Re: what inlet manifold design to use for efi

    Are the runners included in the volume capacity? If thats the correct terminology?

  41. #41
    Non-member Rob@Backyardracing's Avatar
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    Re: what inlet manifold design to use for efi

    not normally, though runner lenth, and bore has an effect.

    see below for classic examples...

    http://www.edelbrock.com/sportcompac...ani_perf.shtml

    http://www.edelbrock.com/sportcompac...ani_vict.shtml


    now both of these manifolds are for the same engine, you can see the clear differances in design for differant output levels, and power delivery.

  42. #42
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    Re: what inlet manifold design to use for efi

    Rob, I'm scared my new inlet manifold may actually be too large I'll be after your 72mm unit

  43. #43
    Member Woznaldo's Avatar
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    Re: what inlet manifold design to use for efi

    Quote Originally Posted by Scoff View Post
    I've think it would be a miricle if you could get even 10 serious customers, even if the cost was sub £500. Reality is that it will cost more than that if quantities are that small. Maybe if the other hardware and tuning costs were lower there might be more interested people.
    I think you're right. There just isn't the market for developing EFI on the C1J anymore. 10 yrs ago an all inclusive kit with proven numbers would have sold quite well, especially as it no doubt would have been better on the juice and more driveable/tractable.

    I would love to have the cash available just to finish my Alliance/Megasquirt set up and actual post up some dyno graphs. Not so much for the numbers but for the shape of the curves. One day.......

  44. #44
    Non-member Rob@Backyardracing's Avatar
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    Re: what inlet manifold design to use for efi

    Quote Originally Posted by Scoff View Post
    Rob, I'm scared my new inlet manifold may actually be too large I'll be after your 72mm unit

    with enough boost to fill it it be fine


    the days of 25psi being high boost are long gone

  45. #45
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    Re: what inlet manifold design to use for efi

    My plan is to measure the car with this 'carb style' inlet than develope another with plenum and make comparative measurements.
    And I'll ask all your help with the development of the new inlet!

  46. #46
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    Re: what inlet manifold design to use for efi


  47. #47
    Member Woznaldo's Avatar
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    Re: what inlet manifold design to use for efi

    Some time in 2015 I'm going to take my Alliance manifold to a local Abrasive Flow Machining (extrude honing) joint to see what they can offer. The pictures on their website 'look' pretty encouraging?

    http://www.abrasiveflow.com/aboutus.htm

    i especially like the fact that they flow test the manifold before and after. Obviously that doesn't take the head into account but a fair indication of their work.

  48. #48
    Non-member Mart's Avatar
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    Re: what inlet manifold design to use for efi

    Fair play on sniffing out an Alliance manifold - I hunted high & low for one of them years ago to no avail.

    Sure, not the best manifold in existence, but better (read less restrictive, and the fact that it's pretty much bolt-on) than the 25mm venturi/32mm t.plate of the o.e carb.

  49. #49
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    Re: what inlet manifold design to use for efi

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob@Backyardracing View Post
    with enough boost to fill it it be fine


    the days of 25psi being high boost are long gone
    25psi is for running in, isn't it ? That borg warner of yours won't think anything of 2.5bar.

  50. #50
    Member Woznaldo's Avatar
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    Re: what inlet manifold design to use for efi

    You blokes have got a boost problem you need to speak to someone about .

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